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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:34 am 
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Location: NL-Gelderland-Achterhoek
As an answer to Josh his question on the Pullman RhB Xe 4/4 and RhB BEX cars:
http://www.rhb-grischun.ca/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3364&p=24472#p24472

Hi Josh,

Do you mean the Pullman/Esu RhB Xe 4/4?

Well, the Pullman RhB Abe 4/4 II was produced by Kiss senior in Poland.

There are some issues with this model:
- Parts falling off
- Lack of available spare parts
- No support from Pullman/Esu

There is a review on this on the Cadosch Forum by Mibema.
Some technical issues showed up.

RhB Abe 4/4 II
https://modellbahnen.cadosch.org/cms/test/4-gartenbahn/6009-pullman-abe-4-4-ll

RhB Xe 4/4
https://modellbahnen.cadosch.org/cms/test/4-gartenbahn/10709-xe-232-01-pullman-2-serie
- poorly repainted red model, with the windows still in it
- some cables which got piched off
- plastic parts get brittle and break in the cold outdoors.

As soon as the first model was available I drove down to Champex-Linden to get a good look at it.
I was willing to replace my LGB RhB ABe 4/4 I for this one.
At CL there was an example available for a test drive.
As soon as I picked it up some parts fell off or got loose in the interior.
This isn't a sturdy motorcar for outdoor use.
Much of the same with Kiss RhB locomotives.
So I decided against it. And Sven Linden send the whole lot back to Esu.
He didnt want to annoy his customers with this kind of product quaility.

The Pullman BEX cars are almost the same as the former Kiss models.
A big differnce is the Esu decoder, the rest is all the same including the issues with the Kiss models.
And some new issues too.
The Pullman/ Esu built quality was much less than with the Kiss models.
Quite a few of the Pullman models were returned to the dealers.
CL didn't want those in his shop after the gravel car and the Abe 4/4 disaster.
I don't think they were built by Kiss senior in Poland either.

Kiss RhB BEX
https://modellbahnen.cadosch.org/cms/test/4-gartenbahn/869-rhb-bernina-express-panoramawagen

https://modellbahnen.cadosch.org/cms/test/4-gartenbahn/2539-bex-pano-servicewagen-von-kiss
https://modellbahnen.cadosch.org/cms/test/4-gartenbahn/2247-rhb-panoramawagen-von-kiss-zweite-serie


Kiss RhB BEX Tuning
https://modellbahnen.cadosch.org/cms/test/4-gartenbahn/3471-beleuchtung-der-kiss-panoramawagen-verbessern
https://modellbahnen.cadosch.org/cms/test/4-gartenbahn/3287-lichtleisten-in-kiss-bernina-panoramawagen
https://modellbahnen.cadosch.org/cms/test/4-gartenbahn/2520-tuning-der-bex-panos-von-kiss
https://modellbahnen.cadosch.org/cms/test/4-gartenbahn/2856-neues-vom-bex
https://modellbahnen.cadosch.org/cms/test/4-gartenbahn/2627-hilfe-um-das-dach-des-rhb-wagens-ew-iv-zu-oeffnen
https://modellbahnen.cadosch.org/cms/test/4-gartenbahn/2261-kiss-bex-pano-a1292-classic-tuning

Pullman/Esu BEX
https://modellbahnen.cadosch.org/cms/test/4-gartenbahn/12268-pullman-rhb-bex-panoramawagen
- Airco unit in a different position
- Box it too short for two mounted couplers
- Replace the Pullman coupler hook and spring by a LGB one
- No print on the separtion walls and floor
- Wrong position of the airco unit and toilets
- No instruction how to open the car
- LGB ball bearing wheel don't fit

You already started a topic on the Pullman / Esu RhB BEX cars here:
http://www.rhb-grischun.ca/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3285

So get the Kiss BEX and forget the Pullman/Esu one.
After the release of the Pullman BEX cars, the left over Kiss BEX cars were very fast sold out.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:49 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:34 am
Posts: 354
Location: USA
Hi Wilco!

Thanks very much for the explanations and the links! That is all super helpful. :D

Sorry I was not clear - I have, at various points on the forum, asked both about the Pullman Abe Xe 4/4 23201 and the BEX cars.


*************************************************************************************

With respect to my question to HJ after visiting Kai's shop last month, I was specifically referring to the ESU ABe Xe 23201.

I had, after reading initial reviews and studying lots of photos on the web, come to the conclusion that the Abe Xe (from the second round of releases from Pullman) was about the same quality as my KISS Gem 4/4. That is to say it is not true length to prototype, but far more convincing than items LGB produces. More importantly to me, was that all the window and doors were in the right places and quantities on the model (again, something LGB seems to forget! #-o ) Overall, if there is a slight compromise in length for operations sake, I can forgive that... leaving a window out or shortening length by 25% or more... that's just inexcusable.

So then, reading the linked review from mibema on the Cadosch forum, it looks as if the car's paint and letter is fairly good quality.
(Initially it seems there were questions of the overspray of yellow, but he goes on to confirm it's ok in a later post - if my German is correct!)

It appears the most severe issues are with cable management and placement in the assembly. Given that I know I would have to open the model up no matter what (as I would feel compelled to remove that driver figure!), I think that this issue is something I could handle. The delicate parts do not particularly bother me as I make a habit of glueing in the "press fit" pieces on models as I work through detailing them. As I'm not driving these models through bushes in the garden, but for the most part keeping them indoors, I'm happy to trade off the fragility for detail.

Unlike the issues of zinc rot/pest - everything I read says the model is good, but delicate - and I can live with that.


*************************************************************************************

With respect to the BEX cars from Pullman/ESU - yes, this is something I was, and am, still confused on.

I know when the models came out, I read in places the AC units were incorrectly placed. I remember even asking if this was something that the owner could relocate with ease after purchase.

Given the frustrations I saw expressed online, I never really pursued these cars - to the point that I don't even know if I have ever seen one in person! I followed the advice online and continued to look for KISS versions of the BEX.

The notes about packaging, coupler damage, etc I took with a grain of salt as of the 3 BEX KISS cars I own, 2 required the reassembly or reattachment of pieces upon purchase. Both of my KISS middle door wagens required extensive reattachment/re-gluing of parts... so the idea that the Pullman/ESU cars were fragile was not really a show stopper for me.

Really, it's the incorrect model that gets me. What I've not been able to find despite searching was a side-by-side comparison of the KISS and ESU models, highlighting the wrong attachment of the AC units. Have you happened to see this anywhere? Indeed - I was surprised when Kai told me that these models are as accurate as the KISS cars with respect to the AC units. I wonder, did ESU miss-assmeble just certain cars? I see the Api is mentioned as having the wrong AC unit (and missing a WC), but did the Bp wagens get the correct AC unit? :-? Or do all ESU versions, in all epochs, suffer from the same mistake?

(In looking at the Pullman website, you can actually see the shift in the AC unit between the Api and the Bp/Bps models in the photo gallery! http://www.esu.eu/en/products/pullman/r ... n-gauge-g/ Never noticed that before! /:) )


Thanks very much for the information and the time to post it here.

Cheers!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:13 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:34 am
Posts: 354
Location: USA
Josh U wrote:
What I've not been able to find despite searching was a side-by-side comparison of the KISS and ESU models, highlighting the wrong attachment of the AC units. Have you happened to see this anywhere?

Just to clarify - I've seen the overhead shot on Cadosch from thend.
(Here: https://modellbahnen.cadosch.org/cms/me ... 270016.jpg)

However, his comparison is an Api to Bp car, so I'm still trying to figure out if the Pullman/ESU Bp cars have the same placement of AC units as the KISS Bp cars did.
(Or, did Pullman get it wrong on the Api, Bps, and Bps cars across the range?)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:35 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:56 am
Posts: 297
Location: NL-Gelderland-Achterhoek
Hi Josh,

Pullman is an Esu brand.
The design comes from Kiss.
Using it mostly indoors should limit the potential damage.
For me it is not robust enough to use it outdoors.
I don’t want to search for the missing parts after a run outdoors.

I have had the Kiss BEX cars overhere and sold them for a friend.
There were some assembly issues and some srews trough the floor.
Furthermore I couldn’t find any fitting ball bearing wheels for it.
Magnus had some, but they are out of business.
These cars are not painted, so they have a sort of plastic look.
Just like the Kiss RhB Gem 4/4.

For me there was to much work to be done on these cars for around 400 Euro’s.

I haven’t seen the Pullman BEX cars.
Most of my friends cancelled the order or returned it to the dealer.
Maybe you can ask Mibema (Michael Becker) on the difference between the Kiss and Pullman cars.
He has an email adress in his profile.
I don’t have any drawings of these cars, so I can’t tell you if there are different locations of the AC units.
Maybe you can have a look on the Landwasser webcam.

I stick to the LGB EW 4 Bernina cars.
Which I don’t have to rebuild and have ball bearing wheels.
With a consist of 6 cars you certainly need ball bearing wheels on a slope.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:43 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:56 am
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Location: NL-Gelderland-Achterhoek
Actually there is a difference in the placement of the AC units between the A and B car.
I found some drawings of it in the Schweers and Wall book.
But it refers only to the A and B type of car, not the Api or other types.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:29 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:34 am
Posts: 354
Location: USA
So it dawned on me that just like Thomas' (thend) photos on the Cadosch forum, I too can take photos of my KISS cars!

In doing so, I could then marry them to the photo from Cadosch - and the result is below!

Image

Now, what does this show?
My KISS Bp car's AC unit matches exactly the placement of ESU Bp car's AC unit.
Sooooo... unless the KISS cars got it wrong the first time, then the Pullman/ESU cars must be correct too! ;)

This then goes back to my earlier question - are the ESU Api cars wrong, but not the Bps or Bp cars... and I guess the answer is yes? :-?

More importantly - since I'm mainly running indoors - and I don't mind doing some fine tuning - does this mean I can now allow ESU BEX cars (or at least the Bp's) onto my roster!! :-o :)) :ymhug:


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:13 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:56 am
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Hi Josh,

I will have a look at the drawings and your photos.

I can scan the drawings for you.
Send me your email adress via HJ.

There are more issues with the Pullman RhB BEX cars than with the Kiss cars.
That is one you will have to decide yourself.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:35 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:56 am
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Location: NL-Gelderland-Achterhoek
According to the S+W drawings,

Location of the AC unit:

Kiss RhB BEX A: about right
Kiss RhB BEX B: about right
Pullman RhB BEX B: about right

So what should be wrong with the location of the AC unit on the Pullman RhB BEX A?
When it has the same location as the Kiss BEX A, you will be all right.
Maybe Kai Fertig can check that out for you.

As for the RhB Xe 4/4 motorcar, an issue is the dividing between the paint colours, like yellow and grey. Furthermore the edges at the windows are not so neat.
Another thing are the missing load doors, where the window was shut.
So, when you can live with all that, just buy it.
You are already familiar with the Kiss plastic built quality.
I don’t see that MLGB comes up with such a rare version, if at all.
But with MLGB you never know wich what they will come up ;-)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:29 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:56 am
Posts: 297
Location: NL-Gelderland-Achterhoek
Just a preview on the Pullman RhB Xe 4/4:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkaGsfJQoY4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwEGT3wZiy0


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