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 Post subject: RhB liveries and scripts
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 4:35 am 
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Now this is a seriously big and confused subject. I have not found a correct site yet. Chris Ozdoba gives various breakdowns on his site from the RhB and Albulabahn club, unfortunately neither are totally correct as a study of old photos shows. Neither do they give a clue as to the true colour of the logos and scripts of older stock.

So let me kick off with what we think we know of the Landquart Davos.

Locos.

Colour - Black

Font - Well the nearest I can get to the numerals and letters is Times new roman, exept Rhaetia, as the LD is on the bunker, how about Times New Roman light condensed ( does this exist?)

Passenger coaches

Colour- Fir green, this is really a useless piece of information as every company suppling rolling stock had their own idea of what fir green was. It could be close to BR loco green, brunswick green is too light (?!!!!) As Brawa and LGB cannot agree on a colour for their models from the same ( SIG ) builder it is a tough one. Is the club 1889 restoration colour correct? What is it?
Underframes in black, hand rails likewise.

Font- Well again the nearest I get is Helvitica light/medium bold in white.

Goods wagons

Colour- Medium grey. However some photos show wagons to be of different shades. Underframes and hand rails black

Font- nearest is Helvitica light condensed

Well I have kicked off to 1896 so what is the consensus?, apart from it is going to get very difficult post 1913!


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 6:20 am 
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Chris,
It is possible that the font used was Akzidenz Grotesk, which was the forerunner to Helvetica ( which wasn't around until the early 1950's)
This was a Swiss font designed for its clarity and is very similar in style to Helvetica and Arial that we all know from our computers today.
I knew my time at printing college would come in handy one day.
Paint shades are another story.
Too many variables, the primary one being light, but also thickness of finish, the surface texture under the paint, colour of primer, weathering....
Also, remember that prior to the mid 1920's when the RAL system was introduced, mixing a colour would be a far less exact science.Even 'black' isn't just 'black'.
Sorry, have probably created more questions than answers :roll:
Mike

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 6:44 am 
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Spot on Mike! It is of great regret for modellers that Letraset is now defunct as the white helvitica medium in 28 point is very close to the older type of fonts you mention. Now do not hide your knowledge under a bushel can you identify and give us modern equivalents to all the rest, it would make modelling so much easier! Great stuff this forum! The unesco submission is staggering but done before the RhB and ourselves uncovered vast amounts more in Chur Library archives, so theres more!!


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 7:34 am 
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Chris,
Quote:
Now do not hide your knowledge under a bushel can you identify and give us modern equivalents to all the rest

My college days were long ago and I probably wasn't a model pupil, but I'm happy to undertake some research if you have a particular example.
Remember though, that typefaces evolve to meet the requirements of the medium in which they are utilised, so there may not be true modern equivalents.
However, as our subject matter is Swiss, a good starting place would be :
http://www.bertholdtypes.com/home.html
Berthold AG being the originator of Akzidenz.
Mike

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 1:47 pm 
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it was possible to download the fonts used on RhB stock. I just need to find the site and link...I was browsing around the font sites as well, a while ago. I'll see if I can find it.
regards,
John


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 2:25 pm 
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John, that would be so useful for anyone modelling, including myself, thak you.

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 3:38 am 
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ritter - John N wrote:
it was possible to download the fonts used on RhB stock. I just need to find the site and link...I was browsing around the font sites as well, a while ago. I'll see if I can find it.
regards,
John

Yes very useful if you can find it. I am trying to create the modern BOLD numbers by using photographs but it's a slow process.
Paul


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 1:21 pm 
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Chris Harnett wrote:
Passenger coaches

Colour- Fir green, this is really a useless piece of information as every company suppling rolling stock had their own idea of what fir green was. It could be close to BR loco green, brunswick green is too light (?!!!!) As Brawa and LGB cannot agree on a colour for their models from the same ( SIG ) builder it is a tough one. Is the club 1889 restoration colour correct? What is it?
Underframes in black, hand rails likewise.

Font- Well again the nearest I get is Helvitica light/medium bold in white.

Goods wagons

Colour- Medium grey. However some photos show wagons to be of different shades. Underframes and hand rails black

Font- nearest is Helvitica light condensed



As for the passenger coach green: during the restoration of X 9034 into c 2012 we found a piece of sheet metal outer covering that still had the original colour. We brought it to an expert who could find out the pigments used. I don't have his report handy, though. We settled for a close match of commercial paint, as we were unable to replicate the original paints and process. The colour is rather blue-green originally, but with more coats of linseed varnish and the custom of wiping down the cars with oily rags rather than washing them, the colour would change to dark green, the Brunswick green, then almost black with a greenish tint.

For the restoration of box car 5615 we researched "goods grey". It turned out goods cars were painted dark grey, the same tone as underframes today, but weathered to light grey. Most people remember grey cars when they were old and weathered, so some restorations were done in amuch too light grey. The present K1 5615 is representing the correct goods grey.

Many iron appliances and parts were specified "black" when new, giving a new goods car its special appearance. Certainly during the first overhaul all those black bolts and pieces were painted the same colour as the rest of the superstructure.

And of course you are aware of the problem of orthochromatic film emulsions that can give a completely different impression, with red becoming black, yellow white, and gold almost black...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 6:48 am 
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Absolutely fascinating Gion this explains the problem of the colours as seen on old photos, ie shades of grey. The next problem is the one of when Freight cars went brown, any ideas? We should then get publish a more detailed view of scripts and colours here.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 12:37 pm 
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The next installment! Our combined knowledge has clarified the LD era and the early RhB up until the change of script which was when? The large RhB script that appeared first (?) on the 4 axle bogie Rastatt coaches I believe to be gold (ish) with a red drop shadow, like the early GWR. I am however only too pleased to be corrected, but when did this change to RHATISCHE BAHN on coach sides and was that in white or yellow? Did the goods stock change to brown at this stage also? Mike your help needed here, what was the font for the RhB then and in its fully spelt form?

I am hoping to produce some 1906 coaches and I cannot find online from any source a decent enough RhB script of the ornate gold and red variety good enough to make a transfer. If anyone has access to it I would be very grateful.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 3:10 pm 
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Hi Chris,
Hmmm.
The original script with red drop shadow - 'Rh.B'., I still think is Akzidenz, although I'm not sure if it was always gold, or sometimes yellow.
The next style - 'Rh B' (should we call it Epoch II?) in white was also possibly Akzidenz, although using medium for the R and th B and light for the h.
The style with 'Rh?tische Bahn' in full (Epoch III) I believe was white on standard coaching stock and gold on the red and cream ex MOB cars (the current ACPE), althought the scripts are completely different. The Pullmans seemed to carry an ornate style very similar to one of the Goudy scripts such as Deepdene or Kennerley.
The green standard stock seems to have a more modern script. I haven't got a good picture of it to work from. Don't suppose you can point me in the direction of a decent photo or three?
Mike

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 2:21 am 
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Chris,
Now I'm confusing myself. I realise this morning that the green 4 axle coach I was looking at last night was the salonwagen 1154 and not the general coaching stock as used on the Dampfzug services today. Not like there is much difference what with the balconies etc......... :roll:
From the pictures I have of the 'modern' dampfzug-vierachser stock the lettering is gold (of course) in a stylised typeface; quite art-deco.
I'm assuming these preserved cars are accurate ( no reason to think otherwise), but could really do with an original shot of one to try and find the font.
Mike

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 12:33 pm 
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Mike, I am glad you are having as many problems as I am, the Epoc II information from the RhB is not correct by a long way. Epoc Ia is put as 1889- 1920 coaches Fir green. Really this is not good enough, we now know that we can at least have a stab at the script style until 1906. Schweers+Wall show an RhB script on the 4 axle coaches purchased from Rastatt that they do not even acknowledge despite quite a few photos in the archive. This appeared on all coaches up to AB 206 and appears to have lasted until 1929 revisions according to Schweers+wall. In other words. No source other than these books acknowledges a style that existed for 23 years!!!! They were on no less than 64 coaches of the first RhB bogie coaches as shown in book one from page42 to 60, so why is this information not acknowledged. It is also my information that it was gold with red and not cream and certainly not from 1921 as era 1b as the RhB claims, but 1906. Ib saw a change of loco liveries but NOT coaches I believe. Even Schweers+ Wall on page 245 show the colours of the script incorrectly as they show only a cream script and no drop shadow, so who is right? Gion, please help!!!

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 1:52 pm 
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Chris,
just to throw another spanner into the works:
I've just by chance looked at my copy of the current Bemo catalogue which has a photo of blue Krok #412 on the cover (the real item, not the model).
The cast plate next to the BBC/SLM makers plate clearly shows the 'Rh.B.' legend having characters with serifs.
In the pictures I have of rolling stock of a similar age ( I think #412 was 1925/6), the characters appear to be sans serif.
Without the benefit of the Schweers&Wall books I now am even more lost!
Did the loks carry a different script, or am I misreading the limited reference material I have.
Mike

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 3:35 pm 
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Mike it is a minefield! The answer is that Rhatia had her LD on the bunker and it was serifed as were no2 -5 but they had theirs on the tank, I think the nearest equivalent is either Helvitica light condensed or the Times New Roman variety, certainly the numbers are very close to the Times. What do you think?
The brass RhB plate is most certainly serifed on all locos up to Ge4/4I the serif takes an odd form of bulbous extension to the verticals, I have never seen an equivalent and this has to be drawn and etched or cast to get a copy for modelling. So yes the locos carried a different script to answer your question.

We are only at era 1b and we are lost! The good news is that post 2nd war it gets easier, there is 1c and 2a to go yet.

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Models are just as expensive as the female variety, but I am allowed to play with the RhB ones.


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